Waggoner, Horace Q. - Interview and Memoir

              University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Horace Q. Waggoner Memoir
W124. Waggoner, Horace Q. (1924-1987)
Interview and memoir
12 tapes, 605 mins., 120 pp.
Waggoner, retired United States Army Air Corps Lt. Colonel, discusses his
experiences during WWII: enlistment, aviation training, overseas training in
England, service with the 353rd Fighter Group at Raydon, England, fighter
missions, bombing tactics and electronic counter-measures, mechanical problems
of airplanes, shooting down planes, R&R in America, relations with the British
military, other members of the 353rd Fighter Group, and his personal feelings
about war.
Interview by Bruce E. Kreuger, 1986
OPEN
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© 1985, University of Illinois Board of Trustees
Horace Q. Waggoner Memoir
COPYRIGHT• 1990 SANGAMON STATE UNIVERSITY. SPRINGFIELD. ILLINOIS
All rirhts reserved. No part of this work may be reproduced or transmitted in any form by any means. electronic
or mechanical. includinr photocopyinr and record ina or by any information storare or retrieval system. without
permission in writina from the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois 62794·9243.
Preface
'Ihis :manuscript is the product of tape-recorded int.mviews corducted
by Bruce E. :Kreuger for the Oral Histozy Office, Bang"an¥:>n state
University in the fall of 1986. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes
and Bruce Kreuger edited the manuscript. Mrs. Horace Waggoner
reviewed the manuscript.
Horace Waggoner was born on May 25, 1924 in Waggoner, Illinois. After
speniirtg his youth in this farming ocmmunity, Horace enlisted at age
18 into the anny during World War II am later was in:lucted in the
anny air corps. After nearly two years of trai.nin;J, he entered combat
in March, 1944 with the 353:rd Fighter Group at Raydon, Erqlarxi. With
the 353:rd Fighter Group, Mr. Waggoner destroyed five aircraft in the
air ard another five on the grourxi. He served with the 353:rd Fighter
Group for two tours, flying both the P-47 'lhunierbolt an::i the P-51
:Must:arq. After the war he retired fran the aony, but was reactivated
in the United states Air Force in 1949, am suJ::sequently served during
the Korean War. After the Korean conflict, Mr. waggooer remained in
the united states Air Force wrtil 1975, when he reached the rank of
Lt. COlonel. Follc,,ring retirement Mr. Waggoner CCIDpleted his M.A. in
Histoey at ~ state university, where he was subsequently
e.rcployed as an oral historian. Mr. waggoner died in March, 1987 at
the age of 63.
In his recollections, Horace Waggoner combines both the talents of
stoey-teller and historian in vivid detail. His love for flying was
also brought to focus in his descriptions of air combat ard missions
flown with the 353rd.
Bruce Kreuger grew up in Decatur, Illinois where he also atten:led
Millikin University. A specialist in aviation and military histo:cy,
he has written several papers on the subject. Mr. Kreuger began
graduate study in Public History at 5angamon State University in 1985.
Readers of the oral history :men-oir should hear in min:i that it is a
transcript of the spoken word, arxi that the inteJ:viewer, narrator and
editor sought to presetVe the info:rnal, conversational style that is
inherent in such historical sources. sangamon state University is not
responsible for the factual accuracy of the 111e1:00ir, nor for views
expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.
'Ihe manuscript may be read, quoted ani cited freely. It may not be
reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical,
without pennission in writing fran the Oral Histoey Office, San;rcm:>n
State urilversity, s,pringfield, Illinois 62794-9243.
Table of Contents
Enlistment and Basic Training •
cammmications School
San Antonio Aviation cadet center .
Primary Training.
Basic Training.
Single Engined Advance Training •
overseas Training •
•
Passage on the Ile de France.
Replacement Training Unit in Englam.
First Mission •
Secarxl Mission.
COurses at Atcham •
Court Martial case.
Plane Recognition Problems.
Escort Mission '!Ward Berlin.
"Chattanooga Choo-Choo"
Banbinq Tactics .
Planes ani '!heir Names.
Banbing B-1 Sights and Railyards.
Savirg Bill Johnson 1 s Life.
'Ihe Ruhlani Mission •
Socializi.ng During World War II
Associations with the British Milita.J:y.
1he Flak Hare ani other Chateaus.
uso Shows
Problems with Planes.
1
4
6
8
.13
.15
.19
.26
.27
.35
.37
.39
.45
.46
.47
.50
.53
.56
.59
.60
.63
.66
.69
.73
.75
.76
Personal Feelings Towards Combat ani War.
Superstitions •
Briefing ani Assignments.
Escort Missions •
Air-sea Rescue and Poor Weather Conditions.
Gremlins.
leave to America.
D-day Invasion Missions •
Flying OVer Paris .
Airplane catparisons.
G-SUits •
Personal Feelings about Germans •
Electronic COUnter Measures and Radar Uses.
Chasing ME-262 1s.
Shooting Down Planes.
Personal Effects of World War II.
.79
.88
.90
.92
.94
.95
.96
100
102
103
104
106
107
110
112
116
Horace Q. waggoner, oct:d:er 15, 1986, Spri.rgfield, Illinois.
:rntexviewer, Bruce KrUeger.
Q: Horace what I would like to do in this project is talk about your
experience during the Seconi world war as a fighter pilot fran
enlistment to the ani of your active duty in the war. N01r1 today what
I would like to focus on is your enlistment and basic traini.rg and if
we have time, ocmnunications school. Before we begin I would like to
ask, when did you became interested in flyin]?
A: I guess in the early 1930s I used to read, well that was before
your time, did you ever hear of G-8 and his Battle Aces?
Q: No, I don't think so.
A: Well there was an old street ani Wesson I think was the nama of
the dilne novel p.lblishers ani they put out westerns ani one of t.hem
was a weekly, G-8 ani his Battle Aces which was WOrld war II
experiences. I used to read that alii ah I remember a book, I don • t
remember the title of it, I don't knc:Jw where it came fran. It was in
our library at home on the naval cadet who had gone through cadets.
But really it was just watch.in;J ab:planes flying over and that sort of
tbi.n;. I never really, you dream abrut flying but I never thought
about actually doing it. Matter of fact, before the war I'd only been
up once. '!he Irish Day picnics at FaJ:mersVille, Illinois about, I'd
say 1937 or 1938, same q~r:~ had a Taylorcraft in there and would give
you rides arourxi the village ani operated out of a pasture next to the
village, about a fifteen minute ride. '!hat's the only time I'd ever
been in the air before I got into cadets ani started flyin;J.
Q: Did you live close to an aitp:>rt?
A: No. (laughter) '!he little village of Waggoner had in 1924, I
think it was, a pasture out northwest of town was listed as the
Waggoner Airport by the CAA at that tilne, the Civil Aeronautics
Authority. No, the closest airport was here at Sprirgfield or down at
Litchfield.
Q: Whenever you enlisted in the ar.my did you think about becoming a
pilot?
A: No, not necessarily. see Pearl Hamor was 7 Oeoember, 1941 and I
ranember our school principal, Jesse Harkness, brought a radio to
school ani set it up in the gymnasium ani all of us listened to
Roosevelt on December 8th when he said that we were going to be at war
and there were ten boys ani one girl, Wilma Jackson. I was a senior
in high school at that time, in a class of eleven and I guess I don • t
recall but I think all ten of us boys made a pact. I knc:M several of
Horace Q. Waggoner 2
us did, that we were going to go enlist am I remember that day I went
haDe ani I told my nether that I was goirq to enlist with all these
other guys and we were all goin:J to fight the war and this was maybe a
week or so after l?earl Hal:bor. All the families infonned us that we
were nat going off to war, that we wre going to finish high school
ani graduate so all of us did. I think one or two of them as soon as
they graduated did enlist. I did not. Man wanted me to go on to
college. My father was dead an:i my stepfather also. So I went over
to the university of Illinois for the summer semester ard it was way
aver my head because I did.n 1t want to go to school I wanted to get
into the war. So I transferred to Blackbum University down at
carlinville, Illinois that fall. I was enrolled there about for about
three or four weeks I guess ani one day, one Mon:By, had the flu as a
matter of fact aver that weeke.n:i so I wasn 1t feelirg well, and I
remember I didn't have my Spanish lesson prepared for :Mc:n::lay so I
walked into the build:i.rq ani past the classroom and down the hall and
down the other stairwa¥ arrl out the door and tossed my books in my
roan where I was boardin;J and walked mat of the way haDe, about
twenty miles fran carlinville, Illinois to Waggoner. sane guy: picked
me up out west there about half way between the places and drove me on
hane and I walked in on the lawn on the farmhouse there and I told Mom
I was goin;;J to enlist ani she said, "I ~." (laughter) so then I
enlisted at Sprirgfield, Illinois.
Q: so this was in the summer of 1942?
A: 'Ihe fall, in September. As a matter of fact I had quite an
experience. I was goin:J to join the marines and I came. to the Post
Office here, the Federal Builclin:J in downtown Sprin:;Jfield and down in
the basement the anny ani the marines, or maybe that wasn't what they
were called but that 1 s Where you sicp=d up for the marines, were side
by side and I got there in the morrung ani I sat there until noon,
went out and had lunch, came back and there was a sign on the door
sayi.nq, "Be back in an hour." Arxl I waited all that day an:i finally
about I guess 4:30 or five o'clock I figured that maybe the marines
weren 1 t goin:J to shew up so I went to the anny next door and they were
about to close up for the day ani I told them, ''Well I guess the
marines don't want me. Do you want me?" '!hey said, Yes," and so I
enlisted in the ~ instead of the marines.
Q: so hortl ;Lor.g did it take between enlisbnent and induction in the
anny, were you ittmediately in:lucted into the ~
A: Yes, I imagine it was a week or so. I had to go down an:i get a
release fran the draftboani so that I could enlist ard that was in
Hill.sbo%0 I Illinois ani I remember I did that. I don 1t :knoli how 1\UlCh.
time elapsed, maybe a week. I had to report in at the Federal
Buildin;. As a matter of fact there was a picture in the newspaper of
ma~ twenty or thirty of us all lined up alonJ the front of the
buildin;J there arxi it was in the Illinois state-Jc:umal.
Well let's see, we went down ani got on the old interurban ard went to
Peoria and at Peoria we had a physical ani I forget whether we had a
mental exam then or a written exam but I think it was mainly just a
physical. We went there ard took the physical ani went right directly
to the facility an:1 then we got back on the interurban and went down
Horace Q. Waggoner 3
t:h:rough st. louis am changed to a train and the train took us to
scott Field down by Belleville, Illinois. We got there aboUt four
o'clock in the mo:mirq. A clear, beautiful sky, it was just :beginning
to get light and we went to the mess hall and we hadn't eaten anything
since we left Sprin;Jfield as a matter of fact, and I remember that
breakfast. It was really good stuff. I go down there every once in
awhile rY:M an:l sit out by old Area B, they used to call it, it's out
on the southside of the base T'Oil, the. air force base, ani I go dCMl1
and sit and watch aircraft operat.in;r and reminisce. All those
:ba.rracks are gone. We had the usual stuff there you k:ncM, they cut
our hair down and we took our shots and got our uniforms ani then
they, I don 1 t heM they decided, but I was assigned to the anny air
corps and they took us over to st. Louis where a bunch was goinq to
Keesler Air Force Base, doWn in Biloxi, Mississippi for our basic
traini.rq. As a matter of fact all three of us, I have two brothers
Who had air force careers ani all three of us went through basic
trainitg at Keesler, the other two after the war.
We got down to Keesler and at the time Keesler was still bei.n;
expan:ied for purposes of basic training and other training. It became
a big trai.ni.rg center down there. We were quartered in those square
squad tents, with wooden platfo:nns and a frame work arouni the sides
up so far and then just tent on top, in a pecan grove on the edge of
the city there. I remember I gathered up all ki.n:m of pecans ani
shipped them heme because this wc:W.d have been in October I guess, the
latter part of October, and so we had basic training there you knc::M
all the thf.n:ls you do all the ma:rctti..rg and drillin}, etc. We were
allCM!d off base a few tiJnes on weekards but not too much. I remember
the sen;reant we had had a policy of inspecti.nq us for shaving every
mornirx;J, mst of us were just beqi.nrrl.tq to get to that age, you know.
If you didn 1 t suit hiln properly when we got to the maneuver area, out
in the piney woods there, he had one of those metal mirrors that the
services had an:i a razor h.an3'irg on the tree and the razor was old and
IUSty ani if he didn't like your shave that moming you had to shave
with that thing. I didn't have to but there were sane guys that did
and it was quite an experien:e. But there was J:'lO'thin;J particularly
excitin;;J about basic training.
'!he only t:.l"rl.n1 that really occurred there in regard to my aviation
career was that same guy who had caxpleted, I don't Jmc:.w who it was,
l:Jut he oompleted a tolr of duty already in the SouthWest Pacific, a
pilot, ani at that tme they were really concemed about the rrumber of
pilots they had and they wanted to get as many people in training' as
they could. '!hey called us out ani gathered us all aroord a platfonn
that had been built up, maybe it was before -we did our calisthenics or
sanet:hirq 1:.ut he then told us about his experiences in canbat in the
Southwest Pacific arxi en:::ouraged us to sign up for aviation cadets.
As a result of that I went over to cur orderly roan which was in the
tent and got permission to go over to this place where they were
signin;J them up ani went in ani had an :i.n'tmview with sanebody arrl
they took dawn a whole mess of data ani made out a blnch of papers arxi
then said, "Go on ani report back ani we will be in oontact with you. 11
So I reported back to duty in the pecan grove arrl ah, I might mention
one thing. '!hey would call us out in the cx:arpany street an:l line us
up in squads am the se:r:qeant wcW.d go along am say, "Okay, you am
you and you an:i you report for I<P," kitchen police. '!hey had these
Horace Q. Waggoner 4
huge mess halls because you can ilnagine n.r:M there would be thousands
and thousands of troops on that base and so on one day he pointed to
me ani said, ''Report to I<P." so I reported to I<P down at one of the
big mess halls ani I was assigned to pots ani pans, cleanirq pots out
in the back there. I remember I cleaned pots, this was in the
evenirg, ani we were SUR;XJSed to be relieved after an eight hour shift
so sanetime after midnight or early in the mmin;J we were ~ to
be relieved. Ndxxiy showed up so I kept on cleanin:J pots and ~t was
the next evenirg, so I had twenty-four hours of duty on KP that night.
After a while we just sat out there ani to hell with them because our
relief was supposed to cane. But that was IJ.ri first experience with
KP, it was a twenty-four shift. I'll never forget it.
But sane way or other they chose ne to go to CCI'l'llnUili.cation school. We
were told to pack up our stuff ani fall out and we fell out and you
kncM you t.hrc:M your barracks bag on your shoulder and you march along
and boal:d the trains. I remember we had this one kid, panpered sort,
he had a guitar with him ani I don't know" what all, he had at least
three or four barracks bags. We were formed up and started out and he
said, ''HoW do I carry all this stuff?" I remember the sergeant
looldn:J at h.i:m arx.i saying, "Well that's your baby." so we all helped
him. we got him down to the train station and then we marched off and
I remember that kid starnin;J there worliedJ'x;J how he was going to
hardl.e all this stuff, he had two or three barracks bags and I
remember that guitar specifically. I don't know' whatever happened to
him but we gat on the tram anyway and took off and headed for
Chicago.
We wcun:i up in Chicago, I guess early in November by this time, and at
that time the anuy air corps had taken over the Congress Hotel ani the
Old stevens Hilton which is rrN the Hilton up there in Chicago. So I
was quartered in the Oongress Hotel and we were up on the umpty-ump
floor and each floor had an orderly roc:m am then they had classrooms
in the basements where we took :regular class. 'lhen once a day we
formed up out in the street there ard marched off to the scuth and
down to sane biq auditorium. I don't recall what the name of it was
but where they had set up :imividual booths ard you went into your
booth and you studied M:>rse code, either serning it or receiving it.
As a result I've never had any trouble with Morse ccx:le, I learned it
enough at that time.
I had been there maybe two weeks and I was down in a class in the
basement and sane guy poked his head in the door and said, "Is there a
Waggoner here?" I said, "Yes sir." He said, "Report to the orderly
roan immediately." so I went out ani reported up to the orderly room
and a guy says, "You are ~ to go 011er to someplace ani take the
written exam for aviation cadet," so I said fine ani went out ani that
same day went over to this place ani went in. By this time I didn't
much care, I just wanted to get in canbat so I figured the hell with
them, I might as well be a camnunication gunner as a pilot. so I went
in with no trepidation or anythj.n;r. I just did what I thought was
right on the exam ani finished up before anybody else a.rd went up ani
han:ied it to the guy ani he said, "You finished already?" Arxi I said,
"Yes." He said, ''Well there is nd:x:xiy else here so I'll grade it for
you." So he graded it for me an::l he said, "Okay, you passed." So I
went on back then ani the onierly roc::m told me to continue my work, so
Horace Q. Waggoner 5
I went back to classes. About two or three ~¥9 later the same thing
happened. It was early in the ll'Dming about f~ve or six o'clock I
guess maybe classes ran twenty-four hours a day there but I knc:M this
was very early in the morn.in:J ani sane guy came in ani said, ''Waggoner
here?" So I went up ani he said, "You •ve got to go take a physical. 11
So I went over to wherever this place was, I remember we went up maybe
abo.lt four stories in this building an:i stripped an:i then we started
dressirq down an:i they poked holes here ani punched here ani tested
and x-rayed an:i all that sort of stuff all the way down. I renenber
one thing my wife doesn't believe it but you had to give a urine
sample in this big lorg trough and you walked up to that trough where
there were a couple of other guys on each side of ne arrl. I couldn't
pee. (laughter) So the guy next to me was "taJdn;J his sanple ani he
was pee~ away so I just reached over with the urinal am. grabbed
sane of his. It was a gocd ~ he was healthy I guess. At arrt rate
that finished up ani I reported up ani went back to classes ani I
didn't hear ~ for about two or three days. 'Dlen I was in class
again, this was later in the day, aroun:i noon, but we were still in
the basement there. 'Ibis guy poked his head in the door ani said,
''Wagga'ler, report to the orderly roan i.rmie:.liately. 11 I got up there
ani they said, "Okay, yw 've got • • • " it was urxler an hour's time,
11to catch a train over at union Station, we'll have a vehicle down at
the door waitin3' for you ani go grab your stuff and go." So the first
place I went was the laun:h:y because I had sane laurxb:y turned in and
luckily it was there. I grabbed ItrJ laurmy am went in ani threw
everything in my barracks bag and ran down to the door an:i there was
another guy at the door, there were two of us there. sure enough
there was a truck out there, it was one of those, oh about a ton an:i a
half I guess, with a canvas top. we hopped in the back of that ani
they drove over to the stevens, the Hilton now, and we picked up a
third guy so there were three of us me had to catch that train. '!hat
driver took off, it wasn't too far to union station, probably about
eighteen blocks I guess over there, bit he took off. You've seen
these movies where the guys are chasin;r through the streets in cars?
It was like that only in reverse we were loakin:] out the back an:1 all
these cars were closin;r up behin:i us. But that was a real race ani we
got to union station he dlq:pec:i us off upstairs arxi we ran down the
stairs ani the guy was just closin;J the gates, the train was already
:nw::wirq when we got to the gate ard w yelled at him, ''We've got to
catch that train!" He said, "Okay, good luck," ani opened the gate
an:i we ran dam. I remenber the porter there an:i we threw our bags to
him ani then hopped on the train an:i we just barely caught it. '!his
was December 5, 1942.
We had this beautiful trip, it was Pulllnan. We had aocx:m:ucda.tions in
a Pullman am w took off am of ocurse in Clti.cago this was in
November or early Dec:::ember and I remember up there how c:x:>ld it was
because we did our calesthenics in our undet:wear. We would go out in
our mrlforms, fatigues on, you know, an:i we'd get out in Grant Park up
there ani they'd form us up ani have us strip down to our lonq
undel'wear ard then we did have calisthenics and you'd get a sweat up
ani then you had to march back ard that cold wirrl! Ohman, we like to
froze to death. But then we took off for san Antonio, Texas ani
arrived down there, I guess a day or so later, ani got off that train
at the station and I remember it was beautiful. It must have around
eighty degrees, the sun was shinin;J ani wann ard nice. I don •t recall
Horace Q. waggoner 6
how we got out to the Classification center. 'Ihe san Antonio Aviation
cadet center was made up of two tb.i.njs, one was the classification
center for initial classification as to whether you wanted to be a
bc:IDl::lardier, a pilot or a navigator ani then the other half of it was,
there was a main highway ran between the two parts, that was on the
west side of the road, ard on the east side of the road was the San
Antonio Pre-flight center. 'lbe classification was for several places
oot then pre-flight was spread all CNer Texas am Oklahana am arourx1
there they had centers all over. A real good buddy of mine, for
exanple, wnt through the Classification Center and went to Pine
Bluff, Arkansas, a pre-flight center up there instead of across the
street.
so we were, in December, in classification at the San Antonio Aviation
cadet center, SACC not the SAC today of course. (laughs) I don't
remember too much about it, they were still constructi.rg it when I was
there. We were in the last barracks on the south erx1 of the Center
when I arrived and by the time I left, about two or three weeks later,
there must have been three or four more raws of barracks to the south
of us they were ~ at that t:illle. About the only th:inj I
remember about cadets or classification was all the tests of course.
IJ:hey had t:hil'9s like rubbir:g your head and pattir:g your stanach ard
all that you Jcnow. 'lhey had it on wheels and stuff ani the dexterity
test and all that. All kinds of tests and of course the twenty mile
hike, ~ remembers that twenty mile hike. '!hey took off in
nice fomation an:l you WOIJI'Ii up straggling' back to the base. '!hey
gave us a gas attack alon;;r the way. sanebody would set off a l:Junch of
tear gas bombs an:l you'd have to get your mask on ani all that. And
then calisthenics of course ani what I foun:i was that I could get out
of all the calistenics and eve:rythirg' else if I volunteered for KP
duty, so I volunteered for KP duty ard I must have gained fifteen
pourrls. I remember that was the first time I became aware they had
fruit cocktail and I must have eaten gallons of that f!NerY day. My
assignment was to peel potatoes. 'Ihey had a thi.n..:J looked like a
washir:g machine am you d1.mrped a whole gunnysack full of potatoes in
the top arx:l turned it on an:i then it ran them around in there ard
skinned them, then you'd stop it ani open it up an:i dump out the
potatoes. '!hat was my jcb and I did that for I guess a "Week or so.
an: then we had mre shots, I l:'ellleltber that.
Fran classification then we were sweatiz¥3 it out of course because
eveJ:ybody wanted to be a pilot. We had those who didn't make pilot
ani 'Were sent to navigation and l:xlnbanlier trainin;J. 'lhen after that
was finished, all th.e classification, it was decide:i I was goirg to be
a pilot.
We were called ait in the carpmy street, fomed up, everybody was
fornai up, this whole ane was shippinq alt. AlCJI13 the hlghw&y that
ran in the mi.clUe they'd run railroad t.racks, I guess maybe two or
three parallel tracks, s~. As wa mardled over towards that, here
were these trains settin;J there, you know' big troop trains all lined
up. We started marcllirq down the len;Jth of them ard we'd cane to a
car arxl they'd halt us ani this bmch 'WC:W.d peel off ani climb into
the car, we kept right on d.oirq that right down to the end. of the
train. 'lhe group I was with marched right on 'tJ1.( the trains, out the
main gate am across to the gate on the other s~de into the pre-flight
Horace Q. waggoner 7
over there across the way. So I had my pre-fli9ht exa:ns at the
Aviation Cadet center too.
I might say that the only time -we were allowed off base in
classification was one day to c;p downtown to shc:p for Christmas. '!hey
allowed us to do that. otherwise the only people that get off base
were those that had nerve enough to go t:h.rol:lgh the bal:bed wire fence
and not get cau;jb.t. A few of them got caught.
Q: so hc:M lorg did classification last?
A: Oh I'd say about • • • well, I got there on the 5th of ll!ICEimber
and we were there at <llristma.s so it must have been alx:Jut three or
four weeks, probably about four weeks. Farly in Janua:cy then I was
marched across the way to pre-flight.
Q: '!here is something you mentioned. earlier. Whenever you went to
basic traininq they decid.Ed that you would be in the air corps to be a
pilot then duri.r.g' the war you didn't have to have a college degree?
A: No that is correct. You had to have a high school diplana is all.
Q: Even for a bomber pilot?
A: Yes, l':aDber pilots lV'eren't so ••• (laughs) yes, the only
qualifications were that you wm:e physically qualified and that you
had a high school diplaua because they neecled. them badly at that time.
'lhat may have c::ha:nrJed before the war was over because I know' at the
taUemd of the war there were a lot of them that we.re in the program
arxi I think most of them were college people at that time.
Q: so the classification lasted four weeks and then What happened
after that?
A: we had pre-flight which was a lot of • • • ch we studied • • • oh
w.hat did we study there? 'Ibe only one I r:eally remember was
recognition. I picked. up recognition of aircraft pretty nicely but I
could never learn to identify those damn ships. (laughter) I
remember I was assigned to special classes to leam how to identify
ships and I finally got so I kn.ew a far of them but I think they just
finally gave up arxi let go on that, maybe because I could identify
aircraft. We did a lot of parades, physical traininq. I remember
Gen.era1 Arnold [General Hent:y H. (Hap) Arnold, camna.n.:ier-in-arief of
the united states 1mtr:1 Air Force in World war II] came doim am they
had, I don't know how many th.oiJsa:r.v:'i of cadets there were, but we were
all formed up in this mass formation ani Gen.era1 Arnold told us hew
illportant our job was in becx1nin;J pilots and all that stuff. I
remember that was one of the times I fainted. You traded off, you and
your bJddy, one time you'd be out on the parade grounds, you know,
:ma.rch.in:;J a.xt:l1.l1'J1 and they • d stop you and st:ard you at attention for a
while and pretty soon you would keel aver and your buddy would draq
you off behin:t the, they had a raw of Jd.rrl of warehouses alor.q the
side and they'd drag you out behin:t that am then you'd sit down and
lean back there and lau;Jh at each ather because you'd think you were
gettirg away with ~. Well I didn't get away with it. I
fainted and my blddy chug me off the field, you know' helped me off the
Horace Q. Waggoner 8
field, and we went over arrl sat down behi.rxl the warehouSe an::1 started
laughinq. 'Ibis officer came wal.Jdn;J up ani says, "What is the matter
with you guys?" So we got caught ani we had to do sane demerits for
that. Demerits, you know, we went out on saturday, we had time off
durin; the weekerds and durin;J your tilne off you'd have to go out an:1
parade back and forth ani back am. forth and back ani forth to work
off your demerits. I did quite a fa~ of them (laughter) and of course
they started the "hazin:J'' at that point. '!he rq;:per classmen just
hazed the hell out of the 1~ classman. You :know, take your GI
shoes ani they'd stand you against one of the posts in the barracks
an::1 then you had to hold these shoes straight out. TJ:y that sane time
for a little while. It will wear you down. No one hazed me badly. I
did that a few times ani you had to do a bJnch of plSh-ups ard stuff.
I know' sane guys that were washed out at that point because they
couldn't take the hazin;J and the m:>re it affected you, the IOOre the
guys would jump on you. So I kind of went alo.rq with it ard did what
they said and it wasn •t bad.
We did guard duty there. I remember cold nights ard clear nights the
sergeant of the guard wc:W.d always tty to sneak up on you. we had one
hell of a time stayirg awake, you would be four hours on and four
hours off duty. I don't 1alow' I guess we were on a day or sanething".
I remember Gene AutJ:y came down to the recreation center there one
eveniig. '!hey had dances on the base. I didn 1 t dance at the time but
it was all right. Not.hirg particularly exciting about pre-flight.
I'm sorry I can't think What in the world we studied there, we had all
kirXls of classes but the only thin;J that sticks in my min:i was that
recognition. I suppose we had the military .science th:inJs, you kncM,
the history of the air CO:t:pS ani whatever, nothing technical at any
rate. '!hen we finished up pre-flight. I guess that must have lasted
about a month ani a half. I would say along towards the erd of
February or early March, saneplace alorg in there, we were IOCJVed on
out to primary trai.nirg 0
For primary training, in my case, I went to COrsicana, Texas. It was
a civilian airfield ani nm by civilians. Well they had a oanmarx1er
of the base ani the test pilots, the check pilots were milital:y but
everybody else was civilian. '!hat's Where we started our flyirg of
course.
I'll never forget my first flight. I'm &>rry I don't remember my
instructor's name, he was a helluva nice guy but we hqped in that
aizplane, a Pl'-19 Fairchi.ld. I don •t knc:M whether there was another
special name for it or not, it was a Pr-19 arryway, low winged and
sinqle erqine and a two-place open cockpit. 'Ihe canadians had
enclosed the cockpit, they had a canopy on it like the T-6, but ours
were open. We hopped in and on our first flight ani he rolled her
dawn across the grass field, got to the edge of the field, he pllled
her up ard we got alJout not aver a hun:ired feet in the air ani he
rolled it. It scared the hell out of me I' 11 tell you! (laughter)
When he rolled it, you know the inside of the P!'-19, well the Br-13
and T-6 ani all of them were that way, there was no linin;J or anyth.i.rg
it was just all frame there. I remember on that thing I grabbed two
parts of the frame on the side and hooked Ifri' feet un:ier satet:hir¥;J dcMn
there, it wasn •t the n.1dder. I wasn •t on the belt at all, l:ut then we
went on up ard fran then after that I guess after about four or five
Horace Q. Waggoner 9
hou'rs, I forget what it was, I soloed. I remember the solo day, I
forget hc:M many flights later, a dozen or eighteen. The center, the
win3s on the Pl'-19 came together 1.ln:ier the fuselage ani were, I don't
know whether they were welded or bolted or what, but at any rate, the
gear was far enough out so if you dropped it in real hard it would
crack that center section down there. we lost a dozen or a dozen arxl
a half airplanes durirg the solo phase there. We were doirg it on an
auxiliary field ard I remember I didn't have any problem with it. I
never had any problem landing an aixplane, but these guys were
cracki.ng them right arxl left and at one time they were short on
aircraft because they couldn't maintain them fast enough. But oh. I
remember at pre-flight, I remember engines. We had a course in radio
and in-lined engines ard we had a course in navigation and gosh I
don't know what any of the other course were, it's a shame I can •t
remember any of those.
we were in low banacks ard it was all civilian nm. We didn't have
to take care of the barracks or do I<P or anyth.in:J. It was all
civilians ani I remember the mess hall there was outst:arrlin:J, oh it
was good food. Man, they really cooked. 'nlat chan;Jed durin:"J sane of
the other places. we were allc:Med to go dcwntown. Oh, I remember the
obstacle oourse that's Where we really began obstacle course running,
we had to do it. I guess we did it everyday because they really
wanted to get US in shape arD they did. 'Ihey had these big 1 well
you've seen the obstacle course, these big walls you know you'd run up
to and this guy helps you up to the top and over and all that. 'Ihe
first time I ran into the North-SOOth Civil War sort of t:h.il'g. I
remember another kid arxl I his name was Tracy and his first name was
Dick too, it was Richard Tracy and he an:i I, I don't know how' we met
these people but they had us out to their home. 'Ihe guy was a banker
there in town ani they had a swimmi.rq pool ani we were just invited to
come out, you knc:M, families seemed to do that rouni these bases.
'Ihey' d nm into some guys ani they'd pick out two or three ani then
they'd just open their home to them ani these people did that. I
don't remember their :names ani I remember swilmninJ in their sw:imtnin'}
:pool because Tracy was a college man. I don •t know whether he
graduated or not but he had been to college and he was a diver. He
used to get out there and I couldn •t dive worth a damn, I'd lani on my
belly all the time an:i he'd get up there ani do all these jack-knives
and swan dives and all :Jd.ms of stuff and oh it used to tee me off
too. I don't k:now whether he was studying econanics but at least the
banker an:i he • • • the banker -would have a portfolio or sanething ani
I remember he'd say, "Okay, Horace, you go CNer ani get a book and
read. I want to talk to Dick here." 'Ihen he'd sit down with that
portfolio ani they'd be talkin;J about stocks and borx1s and stuff, you
know like that. Of course it was all aver my head. But, at any rate,
through them we had dates one evenin;J. '!bey had arran;;red for us to
meet these qirls arrl we were goirg to the DDVie and we got to the
m::wie, I forget tmat the DKWie was that night, but it in saneway or
rather brought up the fact of the civil war. We got to ta1kin;J about
it and I forget how I did it but I offenied this girl. It was
sanet.hi.rq like the civil War was over, we a.Ight to forget it and she
flat wasn't goirq to forget it and she left and went hane. (laughter)
~y, and by the way, just an aside on that, my wife and I, Ellen,
I'd gotten out and gone to the school after the war and was recalled
back in 1949 ani I was down at san Antonio again, down at Ran:lall Air
Horace Q. Waggoner 10
Fbrce Base, an:i we were over at Ft. sam Houston one even.irg at a
dance. We bumped into this couple and I tumed arcun:i to apologize
an:i it was Dick Tracy. Actually I hadn't seen him since primary, we
had split up at that time. He had gone into the "cloak and dagger"
stuff and had done a tan:' or two in Alaska arxl was back down with that
sort of thin:;J that he was assigned at Kelly Air Force Base because the
headquarters for "cloak and dagger'' stuff at that time was there.
'!hat 1 s what he was doin)". But that was really a sw:prise to tum
aroum and there was old Dick Tracy an:i he looked the same as he had
before.
Anyway, the PI'-19 of course was a fairly simple plane to fly arx'l I
don't recall having BI!X difficulty. we did just basic maneuvers,
stalls and spins ani fJ.gure eights arxl immeJ..mans, chardelles, all the
basic maneuvers. I don't recall having any problem with them, I was
no hat rod particularly, and we flE!W' arourd. We had same auxiliary
fields and we flew out to them, no cross country work at that time
other than just goirq aver to an auxiliary field neamy ani that sort
of t:hin;J.
let's see we started out, well we were in the rear coc1<pit of the
Pl'-19 all the way thralgh, even when you flew it solo you were in the
rear cockpit. It was a fairly nice aircraft an:1 it wasn't as
maneuverable I guess as the stearman, the PI'-17, which was the other
stan:W:d. Well there were three at the time I was go~ thralgh.
'!here were three primary trainers bail¥} used: one was the Pr-19 which
I was in, one was the Pl'-17, the stearman, and the other was the PI'-23
which was a Ryan. It was a lc::M-Wirg mono-plane like the PI'-19.
Q: '!hat had the enclosed cockpit didn't it?
A: No, not at that time I would say, none of them in our services.
As I said, in Canada they had enclosed the 19 I knc:M. Now at that
time all the PI'-23 1 s I saw were not enclosed. 'Ihat was flm with the
cloth helllet, you know I out in the wi.rxi. I remember the requirement
was sixty-five hours that we were ~ to get in there and along
towan1 the en:i of the time I'd ocmpleted all the requirements but I
still had a couple of hours yet to go to get nr:t sixty-five. one day
nr:t instructor came out am he said, "Okay, take plane so an:i so and go
out ani I don 1 t care what you do :art get two hours an:i then cane
back," or Whatever the time was to finish up. So I went out and I
remember there was a little village. I don't know what the name of it
but there was a village nearby am I was out there an:i I started oh
maybe five or six hUrrlred feet in the air just circli.rq, just looking
at all the people down there arx:i they were wavi.rq ani I was waving
back ani all of a sudden I realized there was another guy in another
airplane doinq the same thinq, goirq arcmn there.
ErXl of side one, Tape one
A: so, I don't know whether it was he who started chasing me or I who
startecl chasi.rq him, but we started chas:irg each other. Finally I was
on his tail, ani we were goi.rq arourd doi.rq all ki.rds of maneuvers ani
loops ani stuff. We were goin;r straight ani level at the m:meztt, ah,
Horace Q. Wagqoner 11
he straightened out and started flyirq straic,pt, ani I kini of pulled
up beside him, ard he pointed like that, (pol.nts over shoulder) you
know, and I looked back, and right on my wing was another airplane.
It was an instructor with his student, and we recognized the
inst:ructor fran his helmet, I don't know Why, b.rt we knew that it was
the instructor. '!he instructor waved at me, he pointed for me to go
heme, you know'. So I peeled up am out of there, and he flew up
beside the other gey and pointed for hi:m. to go bane. So we went hane
and took our time aJ:x:ut it because I had finished up the time I'd been
told, you know'. I came back ani he had gale, he was on his way bane I
guess at that time, aeyway, he got there before I did, an:l he had
infonned my instructor what had ha};PSl'lE!Id, these two dumb kids were out
there breakirq the :roles, you :k:now, ani so when I lamed In¥ instructor
came ~ out to the ail:plane an:l climbed up onto the win;J before I
got out of 1.t When I was takirg off my belt ani stuff. He said, "I
guess you know' you're all through flyi.n:J." I looked at him and said,
"Yes sir. •• He ~ down and walked off. I climbed out of the
ail:plane and went 1n and filled out a Fonn-1 and all that, and went in
and s.hc1Nered ani chan;;Jed clothes and. went back to the barracks and
went through the evenin:J ani nOOody said anything. I said, "Oh boy,
the next 1l¥XTli.rq I guess they're goin;J to call me in." We were to
depart in a day or so after that, I guess, ani so all through the next
day I didn't have aey mre fly:ixq to do so I was just fiddling arourrl.
I kept waitirq aey mc:mant to have a guy cane out and say report to the
orderly l.'OCIII., it never happened. We were called out and. fonned up,
an::l you know', evm:ything packed and climbed on buses and 'WeJlt down to
the train station, and I never heaJ:d another 1:hin:J. (laughs) But
boy, was I scared for a day, I tell you, :man! (laughs) By that time
I was really enjoyin:J it, I don't m.in1 tellirq you, that was real
flyin;J 1 that PJ'-19 was-you had your head out ln the open, boy t and to
me at that time it was a big ail:plane.
Got sick once, about my secon:i or third flight I guess it was. I
remember I had oatmeal, and I remember I had to wash all that oatmeal
out of the ail:plane, (lal.J3hs) I was sick. '!hat's the only time I've
wer been sick in an ail:plane.
But then, I guess we \tM1'lt by train fran cmsicana, Texas up to Perrin
Air Force Base, or Perrin Field at that time, at Denison, TeXas. I
dal 't lmc:w, is there anything that I've mi seed. that you think I ought
to have said?
Q: No. I guess, whenever the inst:ructor said that you were all
finished flyi.n:J that was because what you were doirq was • • •
A: Yes, we weren't Sll};P:lSed to rat-race, see. '!hat was against the
rules, ani we weren't supposed to fly in fo:t:'lNltion neither. Yoo. know
there w.- a distance we w.re supposed to stay away fran other
ail.'l>lanes, arrl if we'd broken tbat rule ••• yes, it was just a
stupid rat-race which of course, later on as part of the c:x::urse you
had to do that, it was required, and hell they didn't care what you
did then, you could do any maneuver you wanted to, ard as close as you
wanted to do it in by then. But at that time, you see, at that
school, it was against the rules.
Q: Where was the pre-flight or primary trainin;J at again?
Horace Q. Waggoner 12
A: '!hat was corsicana, Texas. It was just COrsicana Airp:>rt, it was
a civilian outfit. I wish I could think of the guy's name, but I
don't have the name of the instructor I'm sure. I don't remember any
of the other in:livid.uals that I knew later except Dick Tracy that I
knew at pre-flight, everybody fran pre-flight, you see, went to all
different bases all over, so people didn't just stay together
necessarily. As a matter of fact, there was another kid, what the
devil was his name? But he was from Darwille, Illinois over here.
Shoot, his nickname is in one of those books I gave you. I can't
think of his name. But I guess we went through scott Field, he may
have been fran Peoria ard scott Field ardon dcMn. to classification,
his name's on the en:i of my t:on:Jue. He was fran Danville and he was
a, I don't kn<:M if he was a college graduate, but he had quite a bit
of work as a botanist, ani I remember he had a 35 millimeter camera
ard he an:l I would go out on hikes arourri the Classification Center
there, ani again at pre-flight, lookin;J for flowers. It was my
job-he had a white card he carried with hiln, or I carried for hiln,
and he'd say, "look at that lonq name, " you know'. I'd say, "Fine,
looks pretty." He'd say, "Okay, let's get a shot of it." I'd hold
the cam down behird it and he'd qet all lined up and take shots of
it, an:i he collected ~ of plants of all sorts. I kept in
touch with hiJn for a lcn:J time, and we went through prbnary together, am then we split up after primal:y, he was gone also. so when I went
to basic trainin:J, there were no in:lividuals that I had gotten to
really know', of course there were saue that hadn't gone with me, or
been with me lonq enough.
So, wre wound up at Denison, Texas and the college at Denison, TeXas at
that time was all girls, I remember that, not that I had anything to
do with girls at that time. Of course that was with the Br-13. 'Ihe
BI'-13 was a little larger airplane than the Pr-19, of course, an::1. it
had a radial erqine in it, and it vibrated. You've heard of the tenn
"V'Ultee Vibrator" I guess?
Q: Yes.
A: It was the Vibrator. God, it just felt like durinq certain
maneuvers or certain air speeds or patJer setti.rgs, that th.irg would
just feel like it was just goin;J to shed rivets. But it was a real
good sb.u:dy airplane, though, and it was :really fun to fly. We began
to gat more into acrobatics there than we had at pr:ilrel:y. P:r'iJnaey is
where you did not:hin:J but loops, you knc:M', and slow rolls. But with
the Br-13 we began to do snaps, am haDmer-heads an:i that sort of
thing. BI'-13 had a real wide 1~ on it, ani ld.n:i of like the
P-47 later, so that you had no real problem with lard:irq it, you had
no prd:>lem with the PI'-19 other than the-as I say these guys would
drop it in, b.lt if you~ a Br-13 in there was no problem with
it, like the P-47 you could drop it ani it wcu1dn1t hurt it, ard it
would stick. As a matter of fact lila had what we called the, shoot I
shouldn't have said that because I foxqet What we did call it, but
we'd go out to an auxiliary field arrl we 1 d • • . they'd set two posts
in the ground then they'd string a stri.rg between the two posts and
put sane flags on it, and then w had contests as to who could come in
han:JiiY:J it on the prop, you know, am who could lam the closest on
the other side of that strinq without breaki.ng it. Boy, I tell you,
there you were really dJ:"c:wing it in because you 1 d be han;JiiY:J on power
Horace Q. Waggoner 13
ani the nanent you cut it just dJ::qped right do.m, arxi we had more fun
with that exercise, ani it didn't tear up that airplane.
I guess the major thirg I remember about basic was that we began night
flyirq, and I had one hell of a time learnirq how to fly at night. We
went out the first night to the auxiliary field, ani of course we had
all our red glasses on, we had to wear them to accustan our eyes am
that sort of thi.n:J. I renanber we "WOre those on the truck goin;;J over
there, sane way or other the airplanes were already over there, and I
'Wel'lt up on that first flight with nry instructor. '!his auxiliary field
was us~ flare pots, you :know on the :runways am taxiways, arxi it had
on one SJ.de of the field was the take-off nmway, or area, an:i then
you larded on the other side, then you taxied from one side to the
other ard took off. We took off ard -went up and he deloonstrated a
couple of lan:iings, came aroun:1 ani lan:ied and taxied back, and said,
"Okay, that's what I want you to do, now do it." So I gave her the
gun ani I took off ani I got in the air ani I tumed on the cross
win::i, and then I made, I rene:nber it was on down win:i, and then I
couldn't figure where to turn on to base. Finally I turned and I
wasn't near base, I was still over the field, and I woun:l up going
crosswise across the field instead of len;thwise. I remember we got
down and he just let me go l.U'ltil it got dan;Jerous, you know, down
close to the other guys, an:i he said, "God damnit, give me this
aizplane!" He yanked it away fran me and took me back arxl put me on
base and said, ''Now you're on base-leg. NCM let's start out again."
or on down win:i I should say, am I got it around finally, finally I
got the J:larq of it, :wt I'll never fozqet the first pass at the field,
God Allnightyl
We took off on our first night cross countr;y, 'We started cross
countries there at basic. '!his was you'd take-off and fly to p::>int A,
and report in. What they did was an instructor would fly an airplane
over ani land it, ani that would be J?Oint A on that little airfield,
an:i the point B would be the other airfield over there, and you came
over ani circled arourrl and reported. Oh, by the way, we had radios
in the BI'-13, we didn't have radios in the Pr-19. '!hen, so day time
was no problem, you had to figure out your navigation, wirn routing,
an:i all that. 'Ihen night turned out to be no problem either. What we
did was took off fran Perrin, Texas up north e.n:i of Texas, Perrin
Field I should say. we flew due west l.U'ltil we hit the light line that
ran south through Dallas ani Austin aM down to San Antarlo, am then
we flew south alaq that light line to sane place north of Dallas,
then turned due east ard hit another light line that went into
Halston, I guess, an:l then flew up that line back to Perrin. so each,
I don •t know, have you ever flown a light line? Do you know what a
light line is?
Q: No.
A: well, you :know they had beacons, rotatin;J beacons, alx::ut wery
twenty miles alon;J the light line an:i each beacon, as you'd see the
flashi.rg light as it came aro:urd, as it was pointed away fran you
right dc:7.m a certain degrees wide right down the light line, you could
read the Morse code letter of that light. '!hat way you cc:W.d tell
exactly where it was, so you flew aver an:l you'd line these up, an::1
fly fran one to the other right on down the line. I forget, there was
'
Horace Q. waggoner 14
an onier, you know like '"'bis is the time for all gocxi men to cane to
the aid of the party'' for typi.n;, there was that type of t:h.in;J for
these letters or codes, you knc:M, I don't remember what it was. At
aey rate, rut those stretched all over, it was years before they did
away with all of those light lines. '!hat was the airways in those
days, before we had radio-~es am that sort of thin:J.
What else at basic? I don't remember a hell of a lot about basic. Of
course we did a lot of formation flyin;J started in basic. No
instruments in my case, my buddy, Joe I<hoble, had about seven hours
interviewin} him last week. He started instrument training just
because his instructor was interested in instruments in basic. But I
didn •t have any time urxier the hood that I recall at all in basic. I
may have had an hour or two, but I don't remember anythi.n:j about it at
all. so it was basically navigation am fonnation and then just
learnin;J heM to maneuver the ai.J:plane, you know', a lot of acrobatics
and stuff. '!here we were authorized to start rat-rae~. '!hey tell
you to go up, you two guys go up and chase each other. OUr instructor
would give us a lot of instructions, not oambat instructions yet, but
begin to tcuch on that sort of thing. I was there in March, got there
in March, April, May .•• no, I got into primary in March, so it was
through the summer, I don't know, it must have been in probably about
September or so, I don't know, I can't, it's all in my log book of
course, but I don't remember. sane time in the late surmner or early
fall I got on the train again and went down to Victoria, Texas.
Graduated fran advanced flyin:J school in at Aloe Field. '!here were
two fields there, Aloe was on the west side of Victoria, and Foster
Field was on the other side. 'Ihese, of course were anny airfields at
that time.
Advanced was in the T-6 of course, which was a step fran the Br-13 in
that it, well the Br-13 had a constant speed prop ln it which meant
that you could change the pitch of the prop for cruise or climb and
descent and all that. So we already had that, but with the T-6 -we had
our first gear where -we raised and lowered the gear. Ani the T-6 of
acurse was the same design as the P-51, the same design teams had done
it, the wings were very similar, and so it was an extremely
maneuverable aircraft. Tough as the devil, you could bounce it all
over the devil. But also, it had muc:h narrower gear and you had nore
problem with keeping it lined up with the runway. Of course once you
leam in flyin;J that it's all automatic all you have to do like when
you're taking off or~ you're lardi.n;J either one, all you have to
do is keep the nose pointed straight ahead in the direction you want
it to go, am in ol:der to do that the adjustments you make on the
stick ani the rudder are autanatic because if you let it swerve off
you've done sanething wron;r, you see, so it's just a matter of
leami.rg to keep your nose straight dam the runway. A lot of guys
would never leam how" to do that, we'd beqin to do a lot of
grourxi-locpin;J in the T-6, I tell you. I never had any prcblem, the
only time I ground-looped an ail:plane was a P-4 7 ani I joined the
"Order of the Fur-Lined Pot" when I did that, I'll tell you about that
later.
so with the T-6 abrut the only t:hin:J -we had to :rel'l'atlber was to :r;ut the
gear up ani down. we had those who forgot to put the gear down, you
knc1.rl. 'Ihey did give rce sane instruments, I remember I took an
Horace Q. Waggoner 15
i.nstrument-c:heck ride out on a ran:re which was saneplace around
Victoria, an:i I couldn't fin::l the cane of silence to save me. After
aDout two or three attenpts the guy said the hell with it, and we took
off and went out ani buzzed. someone. We were buzzing cattle, as a
matter of fact. He was doing it, I was just sittirg there, (laughter)
so that was nr:1 check-ride for instruments. I never did learn how' to
fly on i.nstnlments, not lmtil way years later. You know, the
precision that you need on rarqe ani approaches ani all that, I could
fly i.nstJ:uments through clouds am that sort of ~, I did a hell of
a lot of that in Erqlarn, I tell you. But, of course we started our
gul1l'1eJ:Y at advanced. we went da.m to Matagorda Island, still used as
a banb-ran;~e for SAC [strategic Air cauman:i of the united states Air
Force], they have that autanatic ~facility that tells them
Whether ••• where their banbs hit in a silmJ.lated bc::m::>in:J run. At
that time we used real baobs, well practice lxanbs, they were small,
about a foot lorg an:i p.It a shotgun shell, a big lon;J shotgun shell in
the front of them, and ~ they hit the ground that shotgun shell
fired and a big p.lff of sm::>ke would come out and you could see where
the banb went. '!hey stlll use those today. So we 'Wellt down to
Matagorda Islan:i an:i did a bunch of that, ani had straf:i.rq. You had
one 30-caliber machine gun on the right-hard cowl, just to your right,
sticki.rg right out of the fuselage there. You fired that through the
prcpellor, I don't know how many l:'OI.ll'rls we got. SOme place along the
line, I guess it was at Perrin, in basic trai.nirq we started shooting
skeet too, they figured fighter pilots should do a lot of skeet
shooting. They hadn •t made up their min:i yet in basic whether you
were going to be twin-erqined or single-erqined, well that • s one thing
that • s kind of interesting I guess.
My name bei.n:} Waggoner, I was always at the tail erxi of everyt.l'lirq,
they never thought about startin;J at the tail erxi, they always started
with "A". At basic there, shortly before we shi~ out, they had
decided who was going to the advanoecl twin-erqined ard who was going
to advanced s.in;Jle-en]ined., ard cane to think of it there was a guy
named Clyde Whitmire that was with me at Perrin, just oooured to me
I • d forgotten about ltiJn for a lorg time. Anyway, we got to the . . .
no, Whitmire wasn't with me at basic, w joined at advanoed, yes, yes,
he wasn't with me at basic. Arrjway, w went down the line, or they
lined us up and we were walki.nq by this desk, an:i as the person stood
at attention in front of the desk, the guy asked him, ''What do you
want to do, twin-erx3'ined. or si.rgle-ergined?" 'Ihe guy ~d say
whatever he wanted, arxi they'd say, "Okay, you're whatever you want,"
twin-en;ined l\Oll.d go that way arxi si.rgle-ergined ~d go that way
(points). Got da.m to two guys ahead of me ard they st:.e{:tled up to the
desk an:l the guy said, "I got one si.rgle-ergined slot left, 11 you know,
and the guy said, ''Well • • . 11 an:i then he thalght, ard of aourse
when your nanes got together on the acme letter you spent a lot of
t.ime together 1 you knc::M 1 aM hiS buddy 1 the next guy in line, another
W, they had been together I guess for quite sane tilne aeyway. He
tumed arouni arxi talked to his buddy a 11lim1te an:i he turned arourd to
the rpf at the desk an:i said, ''Well, we want to stay together, so
we '11 take twin-en;Ji.ned." 'Ihat left the one slot open and when I
stewed up to the desk I was the last one to get si.rqle-erqined, ani I
wanted sin;Jle-engined. So I went off to single-engined advanced.
Horace Q. 'Waggoner 16
I can •t think of anythin:J that particularly excitin:] hawened there.
'Ibis Clyde Whi'bnire was married, he wasn't supposed to be but he was,
ard he brought his wife down there ani I remember they oalldn' t firxi
quarters, ard I know we scrounged ali over Victoria, TeXas, teyirq to
fini a place for them to live, finally fourxl a little one roan
aparbnent. we went in an:i had a few parties with them, warmed the
place up for them, you kr'low. His wife invited us out to dinner
occasionally, 'We'd go out and eat dinner. One reason I mentioned hill\
is .because when we went on to OVerseas Trai.nin] unit in Florida he
went through with me there, ani we got to know each other pretty well,
arrl then we split up when we • • • we went back to Dale Mabry in
Tallahassee, Florida, which was the center for the training group down
there the OVerseas Trainirq unit. He was assigned to Ihll COChran's
P-51 outfit in :sw:ma. Remember the ones that worked with stilwell,
General stilwell [General Joseph stilwell was canmanier of the
American Antrj in China ani BuDna in World War II] and that bunch, an:1
he went to southern Florida for further training in the P-51, an:1 then
went with :R1il COChran's group, and then I lost track of him after
that. I haven't thought of hlln in a lc:D3 time.
so, anyway the big day came at Aloe, I remember we went d.ownt:.a.tm to
Victoria and this guy was making a mint, the guy that you 1 d go into
him. and you 1 d say okay, measure me up, ani he'd take your measurements
ani he'd outfit you with every kin:i of clot:hin;J you could think of:
all of your officer's blooses an:i trousers ani hats, ani he would
always t1'lrc::M in all 1d.n:ls of stuff that you would never use.
(laughter) It was part of the kit, you know. So, I remember we got
that. Mom sent me a SChick, I guess it was, electric razor, ani we
all packed ard then we were all qoin:J down for the parade, they had a
graduation parade, but as soon as that parade was aver we were all
leavin;J. As a matter of fact a couple of us had made arrarr;ements to
have somebody drive us, I don 1 t know, 'We hired a car or somat:hing to
drive us to Houston to catch aircraft, we had tickets out of there to
get hane. Of course we had leave then before we went to the overseas
Trainin:J Units.
so we went out and had this big parade an:i the guy pinne:i our Secon:i
Lieutenant's bars on us. 'lhe wives ard daughters ard mothers and
stuff were there with sane, my folks weren't able to make it.
went back to the batracks to get our stuff ard sanebody had carpletely
ramsacke:i the barracks, just taken ~ including my Schick
electric razor, that's about the only thin:J I lost, but sane guy had
gone through and just • • • oh, and as soon as you were o:mnissioned
you had to give a dollar to the first guy who saluted you. I remember
trying to get off the flightline where the parade was without saoel:xx:ly
saluting' you so you didn't have to give a dollar, (latr;Jhter) we had to
do that. '!hen we, let's see, there lliJSt have :been scmethinq else I
can remember about advan:::ed.
Oh, fly.il'g the T-6 of course was a real experience, later on I flew it
as an instructor for about three years, ard I must have accumulated
over a thousani hours in the T-6. At the erxi of advanced they gave
you ten hours in either the P-40F or the P-40N at that time, I don't
:know they probably used different aircraft later on, 5ls arv::l 47s, but
at that time it was the ~o. '!he P-40F was a heavy son-of-a-gun,
HoraceQ.waggoner 17
fairly easy to larxl because it was so heavy it would stick on the
gra.nn. 'Ihe N was a light nrdel, built for speed am maneuverability,
I guess, and be:irg light if you didn't three-point it, it would
bounce. I tell you, those guys sure had a time with that N. (laughs)
As I recall I think I flew the F all the way through so I didn't have
any real problems larxtin; the 'thirJ;, l:ut there were a lot of guys who
never did leam to lan:l the 'thin;, they'd just :put it on the gra.nn.
we had our ten hours in that. we used to go up in the P-40, you Jmc:M,
we had sane speed on the T-6 although it oould outturn the 40 easily.
We'd qo up, you know, an:i get in all ki.r¥is of rat-races with P-40s and
T-6s, arxl of ca.JrSe flying clouds. You want to have an experience,
really sanet:l'rl.rq, we used to ••• you'd get a great big fluffy cloud,
you lcrlQ4', and you'd aim right for the center of it in a dive, and as
you got to it then roll her up, pull her up, and then go over the top
upside down with your head right in the edge of the clouds, you know
ard the come out the bottan and back up aroun:l and roll her out,
that's fun. I haven't done that for a long time t.hough.
Q: was the P-40F npre sluggish to fly?
A: Well, yes, either one of them was not that good an aitplane for
maneuverability and that sort of t:hin:J. Of course at that time I had
1"llthil'q to go by, it was just a great big fighter plane arxl it was
exciting as hell, you kn.c:7tl. But we had m armament in either one of
them so that made 1::oth of them lighter than they would have been
ot:hel:wise. It was, see, it didn't make aey difference what airplane
ycu clilnbed into in those days, everything was the same. You 1mc:M
your throttle was aver here on the left, your mixture control ani your
propr pitch, those three levers were, they might have been a little
bit different, but they were always aver there on the left, on your
left harx:l. 'lhe stick was the same, the rudders were the same, the
triln-tabe varied a little bit, cowl flap switches am canopy access
varied a little bit. But in two minutes of lookin:J arcun:i the cockpit
you could discem what the differences were, and there was always the
same thing there in all of them, although there might be a little bit
difference. You could climb in ..• going fran the T-6 cockpit into
the P-40 oc::x::kpit, or the P-47, or the P-51 was, you lmow', you just
felt at hane when you climbed into the other airplane. so you didn • t
have • • • well the same is pretty much true with the jet aircraft,
too, they all fire up abc:ut the same. Modem instrumentation is
gettirq out of this world.
As an aside I .•. my son-in-law is in the air force :now an:1 he was
teaching down at Sheppard Air Force Base a While back, about two or
three years ago. Well we went down to visit am in the hangar where
he was teaching cxrmm.mications maintenance, they also taught airframe
maintenance dc7.m below in the big 11arJ1ar, ani while I was in the
har'qar I Walkecl, I forget he had sanet:hirq to do. I said, ''Well, I'm
goin;;J down to lOlk at these airplanes," went down and there was an
F-15 sittinq there beside an F-111, an:i I climbed in the F-15, looked
at the insttument panel and reached for the throttle, everythirg was
just, you know', was like the F-86 or the F-94 not like the F-89
particularly, [F-86, F-94 and F-89 were all jet fighters of/ the 19SOS.
F-86 North American Sabre, F-94 Lockheed Starfi:re ani F-89 Northnip
SCorpion.] bJ:t that was twin-en;rined, well the F-15 is too, bJ:t it was
DDre like the F-51 than ••• I knew I could fly it. I could 90 cut
Horace Q. Waggoner 18
ani get a couple of hours .in it. '!hen I clilnbed out of that one, over
to the F-111 ani I looked at that instrument panel, ani it was
COirpletely Greek. New bar system is being used n<:N on those where you
line up a line across it and line up all the different parts of that
line ard keeJ? them lined up, ani it's caopletely different fran the
old system, 1t would take me a year to learn how to fly that t:hing" I'm
sure.
But back duritg world War II, I guess it was probably designed that
way so that you could go fran one aiz:plane to the other in no tilne.
So I had no real problem climbirg into the P-40. Yes, it was Jd.rrl of
sluggish, the N was more maneuverable than the F, as I recall I didn't
fly the N at all, I flew the F all the way thralgh the ten hours.
Fran there -we came haoe on leave, then fran leave to the OVerseas
Trainin:J Unit. How" 1tU..1Ch. lo.rqer did you want to go this moming?
Q: 'Ihat's about it.
A: Good, Tirj voice is ge:tting' tired. (laughs)
Q: I thought we'd leave off right before you went on leave.
A: Okay, good.
End of side 'IWo, Tape one
Q: Horace, I think when we left off last time we were about ready to
tell me about your leave. Before we get into that there is sanething
I wanted to ask you. last time ~ said there were a lot of crashes
with the trainers in primary training, were there any fatalities?
A: No, it wasn't a matter of the plane crac1d.n::J up or anything, the
center section would crack so it was still holdin;J together. It would
probably still fly I guess but it was cracked and they had to replace
the oente:r sections on them. No, let's see I don't recall any
fatalities. As a matter of fact, I don't recall any particular
ao::idents other than the Pl'-19. '!here surely nust have been sane
al~ the line, tA.lt no, I just don't recall aT¥ ao::idents there. NCM
we will get to saoe more accidents later on with aircraft but no, in
trainin; it was pretty safe I guess ani our class got through okay
aeywa.y. It's easy to do, I might say this as an aside an:1 this was
after the war. I was recalled to active duty in 1949 and I went to
Randoll;tl Field an:i we had just becrma the air force at that t:ilne, the
united states Air Force .in 1947 of ca.u:se ani I went through trainirq
school ani a kid by the name of Ste);:henson, gosh, I've fo:r:qotten his
first name, he was fran Dmville, Illinois aver here. He was in the
352nd fighter Squadron with me and came h.c:!ne an:1 he was down there so
actually there were three of us, G. G. Collins was there also fran the
squadron and steve was off at seguin AuxiliaJ:y Airfield one evening
putt.itYJ in same extra time with one of his students who was havin]
trouble leanti.rq how to coordinate. '!hey turned on final, they were
~ touc:tl.-and-go' s, ani they turned on final. If ycu would get a
kid that was scared of fly~, he didn •t want to tip the ail:plane up
you know, so as you made the tum onto final you were suwosed to have
Horace Q. W'agg'oner 19
your nose down a:rd make a coordinated tum but if you 1 re afraid of the
ground you had a terdency to pull the stick to the right to keep the
wir.gs fran dippirq down in a left tum, yet you wanted to tum so
you' d. be pushing left rudder which is c:rcss-controllirq. If you go
far enough with c:rcss-controll.irg an aircraft will quit flyirq, it'll
snap on you a:rd it snapped in the final tum. steve, he had been
flyirq all day, arrl was tireci I'm sure arrl wasn't watching close
enough to catc::h it. You could catch that thirq a:rd if you caught it
quick enough you could stop the snap ani he didn't a:rd it snapped on
his back ani went in. so there were t.hclse types of aooidents that
occurred I'm sure thl.'ough the trainirq dur:irq the war but we just
happened to have none in our class. steve was killed, well both of
them were killed. at that time.
Q: Now, Whenever you mentioned. saret:hinq about the plane cracked, I
thought the plane just sort of fell apart.
A: (la.ughs) No, it just cracked, it was actually a crack, just a
crack where the center section broke apart. Well it cracked but
didn't break apart I guess is the way to say it because the plane
looked perfectly okay sit.tin.;J there with a cracked center section. If
you knew what you were loa'k:.in;J at I guess you could. tell the wirqs
were pointin;J a little too high fran the gramd a:rd the belly was a
little too low. ·
Q: GettiniJ back to the interview today, when did you go on leave?
was that right after advanced t.rain:in;;r?
A: Yes, I really don't remember, I guess it was leave. It could have
been delay e:nroute on the way to Tir:f next station. Yes, we had our
graduation parade there at Aloe Airfield, Ar1:cr.i Airfield, ani as soon
as we went back to the barracks, I believe I told you the barracks had
been stripped., we got back there a:rd took off for Houston. I forget
new, r don •t even remember the trip haDe. I think I went with a bunch
of guys in a car or taxi or saret:hinq to Houston fran Victoria which
isn •t too far a:rd I think I took a plane fran there but I'm l'1Qt sure.
It wcuJ.d either be a plane or a train, we didn't do too l1l.lCh flyirq in
civilian planes in those days. :Anyway I got hane on my way to Dale
Mabry Ar1:cr.i Airfield, at Talaha.ssee, Florida whicil was the overseas
trainirq unit headquarters or group headquarters.
Oh I don •t knc:lw I not:hir¥;J in particular happened ani r got home ani
fCIUI"d. out r could still milk the cows. We lived on a fam at that
tima just outsids the village. I :r:emedle:r my ~ had Df':/
sister arrl r go down to a ~ ani have our ~ taken
together. I don't remember 11'l1Ch else. I remember a ~ of me
sh.ad.nq I could still play the t.ra.n1:x:l1e at that time. It was a
thirty-day leave in there at hane prior to goirq on to overseas
Traini:ng' unit.
I 'WCI.l:nd up at Dale Mabey, I don't k:ncM haN I got there either 1
probably by train. At Dale Mabry, I don't :k:ncM where the other bases
were, but Dale Mabry had this group headquarters a:rd I believe one of
the trainirq squadrons was there arrl there was a third trainirq
squadron saneplace else I don't :k:ncM where. At Perry, Florida, at the
lti1.U1icipal field there was the one squadron to which I was sent for the
Horace Q. Waggoner 20
ova:rseas Trainfn:J Unit b.Jsiness. We were flyin;J P-47 Bs nDStly I
think, the old "razor back." We had formation flight tra.inin:J,
navigation flights and air-to-air gunnecy ani air-to--grourxi giJ1'l1'leJ:y.
About all I remember about the ai.r-to-groun1 gunnery, they had a
sardpit al~ the edge of the gulf there just west of Perry and we'd
go out there ani they had these big square targets ani you shot those
up. we didn't have all eight guns firin;J. I think probably only had
two, one in each win;}' ani we went out am did that for air-to-groun:l.
Air-to-air we fired on a sleeve. We'd go out on the gulf ani they'd
tow a sleeve by ani we'd fire on that and each individual had a color
of paint on the nose of the anm.mition, fifty caliber, so if you hit
the target it wcW.d leave, where the hole went through the target, it
would leave just a little bit of paint., 'Ihen they'd ccme back and
drop that taJ:get ani everybody would gather aroun:i to figure "Who was
the best shot. I wasn't much of a shot. I didn't hit it very much
but I guess enough.
Oh let's see. One day, I don't knCM what happened, I was up on a
flight in one of the aircraft for some reason or other, I was havin:]
trouble with the ail:plane sane way or other ani I lan:led. You :know' an
emergency laniin;J, declared an emergency ani came in an1 I lanied and
rolled dc7.m the n.mway ani everythinq was going fine arrl all of a
sudden the right gear just real slat~ly started folc:iin] up, so the wirq
tip went dcMn real slowly ani I got off in the sand on the side of the
field ani came to a stop an:i no particular damage. It didn't get the
prop, :because if you hit your prop ard it was tumil'q, you could blow
the ergine nicely am twist it all to hell. so there was no
particular damage to the airplane, maybe a bearirq was bent up or
sanet.h:in;J ani they had to chan;Je that. I remember I climbed out of
the airplane ani of course the crash truck ani the meat wagon am
everything was out there and had chased me down. Sane line sezgeant
or crew chief came wt ani I was st:arrli.rq by the plane ani he went up
and looked in the cockpit and came back and said, ''What ha~
Lieutenant?" I said, "I don't :kncM What happened. A gear folded up."
He said, "You know the gear han:lle is in the up position don't you?"
I said, ''No." I' 11 never lo:low how it got in the up position. You
know you had to release it to p.lll it up am I must have pllled it up
saneway or another. But he said , "Well that wasn't the reason you
larded aeyway, but I plShed it back down." (laughter) 'lhose crew
chiefs would take care of you. I'll tell you another couple of
instances of that later on, so I wasn't credited with hav~ a pilot
error for foldin;J up the gear.
We had one kid, I don't J:."EEI!E!!Dhe this too well, I was tal.ki.rg to Joe
I<hoble a OCRJPle of weeks ago, inteJ::viewirq him. Joe Rhoble, he was
with me in the squadral c:lu:rin:J the war for both tours ard he went
through Petty at the same time as I did, ard I vaguely remembere:i it.
we had a kid, I don't knc::M who it was, but one of us 'Wel1t up ani we
were always told to watch our airspeed when we were divirq because
t.hin:Js ~ to the ahplane. Nc:b:dy really urderstood what it
was, it was c:x:mpressibility was the problem ani you could tell it was
oc:mi.rq on because your tail would start to flutter ani then Mle:n your
tail started to flutter, was the same t:hirg as in a stall. You ocW.d
tell a stall was canin;J an when your tail started to flutter, you
should start pullirg out. well he was up at altitude, twenty-five,
thirty-five thalsani feet, sane place up there an:l pzt it in a dive
Horace Q. Waggoner 21
for sane reason or other, might have split-s or sanet:hing ani got
goin;J ani didn't p.lll it out fast erv::JUgh. In the P-47 when you went
into CX~Tpressibility first, you got that shudder ani then you've got
no control at all. You oould move the controls any way you wanted to
ani J.'lOt:hiD;J happened, the airflow was away frau the control services.
'Ihen if you go on then ani increase your speed, yet you'll hit the
carpressibility stage which wculd lock the controls ard you oc:ul.dn't
budge them. well he got into that ard of course nobody knew anyt:hi.n;",
we dian •t have any instruction on what you do, we had been told hew to
stay out of it, but we'd never been told what happened when you got
into it. So he was p..ll.litg back like mad and he cxW.dn't get any
reactia1 ani he put bath feet on the stick ani both llan3s ani pushed
forward ard aouldn 1 t budge a t.hin;J except as you got down to the mre
dense air you had to be goirJ3' a lot faster to stay in ocmpressability
ard it would cane out by itself. It did, ard of ocurse when it did he
had everyth..:inJ he could push on that stick forward and it did an
outside loop on hlln an:'l he redded out. Noz:mally when you plll
positive Gs you black out, the blood all goes to your feet ani your
brain lacks the blood so you black out. Well if you do negative Gs
the opposite happens 1 the blood goes to your head ani yoll red out,
eveeythi.n;J just tums red. I •ve had it ~ but not as in his case
ani so he came out in this outside loop, the l.U'rle.rside of it of
course, and redded out, and came back to an:'l got it Ul'der control and
called in and told them what had happened as much as he knew what
happened. He declare::l an emeJ:'9W1CY aeywa.y ani when ¥Oil declare an
emeJ:9el1CY like that, one of the inStructors will be lll the tower and
he will get in contact with you to discuss what the problem was with
you ani help you ani that sort of thin;J. so he talked it out with
this ~ in the 'tatler and the ~ in the t.c::Me:r told him he'd better
fly arourxi for a while to make sure he was okay. First off ard
seoorxUy they wanted him to fly arourrl so sanebody cx:lUld get up there
to take a look at hlln to see if there was any damage to the aircraft.
So they -were scrambli.rg one of the other instructors off to go up and
check hlln ani he called in and he said, "I •m c::c:anini in," ard he came
in arryway. He lamed ani he was disoriented, his eyes were
disoriented ani he came in ard he thought he was larxlirg on the runway
ard he mi seed the runway ard larded on the sa:rXl strip on the side.
Well that sam down there, you •ve bean to Florida ani knc::M the san:i
down there?
Q: Yes.
A: well he lan:led on that soft sand ard of coorse it dug in ani went
aver on its back. N01o1r this is hearsay because I didn't go out to the
aooident, but Joe said he was there an:i saw the crash truck when it
got there. 'Ihe meat wagon pllled up beside it ard they started
diggin;J down to the cockpit ard they fam:i this guy diggin;J away like
mad teyirq to get out fran unier that. He wasn't hurt fran flippi.rg
aver at all bJ.t they said his eyes were as red as the devil am then
the flight SUJ:qeOl'l there checked hlln an:l told hlln he shouldn It have
lived through it. SO they sent him I guess to the gra1p flight
surgea'l and he checked hlln ani they finally sent him to wa.sh.irgton.
He was evaluated at WashiJ'gton ani I don •t know' what happened to him
after that. But that was one incident that happened at Per:ty.
Horace Q. w~ 22
Oh there was another ard this I can tell you personally, where we were
given a training in low level navigation. '!hey told us, I forget the
name of the river, swanee or samet:hirq, it leads down to the
University of Florida C8np.ls I know ard we were told, "Okay, we want
you to go out ard ani we want you to navigate fran point A to point B
ani then to point c ani then back to the base ani we want you to do it
flat at the deck all the way." so this first leg I went down this
river. You know you could fly on the treetops but eveeybody got down
on the river ani when we went d.own guys fishing were bailin;J out.
(laughter) Boy, that old R-2800 was go~ full fot:Ward. go~ down
that river ani there was a highway alorq the way. I remember we
buzzed sane cars on that. I tell you we went irxtividually, but all of
us did that. 'Ibm the tumi.rq point was whatever tam the university
of Florida is in, I guess it was the university of Florida, it was
same university aeyway. At that tumi.rq point each one of us went by
and just beat the hell cut of it, just flew all over the place you
kncM (laughter) ani then back I guess we did m::st of our highway wrork
on that seccn:t ani third leg. I remember that was really fun because
you were d.own there in that river bed you see and you were looJtin:J up
at the tops of the trees on both sides ani it meaniered alorq. But
everybody got chewed out for goin:J to the university of Florida, if
that was it. Let's see, flying there, I don't remember any specifics.
It was quite a m:we, see we had the ten hours in the P-40.
Q: 'Ihat was also at Florida?
A: No, that was back at advanced at Aloe, we had the ten hours there.
'then m:wed right on into the P-4 7s am. of course the P-4 7 was a heck
of a lot better ahplane than the P-40. we did :iniividulal ccanbat, a
lot of camera work, just tackinJ on behind each other ani a lot of
dogfightin; up there. I remember, you knc:M what hushpuppies are?
Well a hushpuppy is a-when you go fishing, you know you cane back and
you've got all these fish so you clean the fish and then you fry the
fish and as you fey the fish you take co:J::l1lDeal. ani onions ard a cup of
milk or water or sanet:hin;1 to make it into a little ball am. you fry
those with the fish ard you t.hraw' those to the dogs to keep them
quiet. 'lhat's what I'm told ~Y· I had gone into Perry ani they
had a USO [united Bel:Vice OJ:ganization] place there. It was sumay
afternoon ard it didn •t qle1l until one or two o'clock or sa.uethirg
lika that an:l I was early and I was sittirg out on the lawn, a
beautifUl lawn. 'Ihis big car drove up ard this lady stuck her head
out and she said, ''Hey! You want sane ~ies?" I had never
heard of ~ies. I had no idea ani I didn •t Jcnow her or anything
ard here was thlS st.ralJ;le lady drivirr:J up am want:i.rq to knc:M if I
wanted some ~ies. (laughs) I said, ''Well I don't knc:M what
they am, but yes." so she said, ''Hc:p in." So I went 01er am hopped
in an:i then we drove out to this pretty good sized mansion, well not
out of town, it was in the town, ani she introduced herself as Mrs.
Scales. I'm sorry I can't remember her first name and I can't
remember her husban:l's name, Robert I think but I'm not sure of that.
But soaJ.es was the last name, he was a banker. He was president of
the bank at Pen:y, Florida and at two other places there.
r.rhe reason I 1m stutterir:g here is that it suddenly oocutred to me that
one of the other squadrons of those three in that group was at a place
so.zth of us about thirty miles or so and he had a bank there ani I'm
Horace Q. waggoner 23
tryi.rq to think of the name of the place. Aeyway one of the other
squadrons was down there.
So we went into her house ani sure enough she had hushpuppies there
ani I met her husbani ani I stayai for lUl'lCh ani what have you. What
the Scales did during the war was as these guys would cane through the
airfield out there, they would pick out one or two or three or four, I
guess maybe up to about four ani invite them to use their heine as a
hane. '!hey had a porch on the second floor in the back ani they had
put four cots back there ani we oc:W.d go ani come anytime we wanted to
ani sleep there or whatever. '!hey made dates for us ani I remember we
had a taffy plll one night, a couple of guys ani a couple of girls
fran there. But they 'Wel:'El really worderful, I kept in touch with them
for a long time. My' m:Jther ani Mrs. Scales wrote for several years.
'!his happened fairly regularly. I believe I mentioned to you Dick
Tracy and I had a place in COrsicanna, people there that invited us
in, which was really neat because here you were, that was the first
time I had ever been away frau heme really ather than any further than
the university of Illinois that summer and then Blackbum. I don't
know, the Scales had problems later on. 'Iheir son, Joe, I won't go
into but he got hi:mself into sane financial difficulties ani bJsted
the family. I haven't been in touch with them nr::7il for years though.
so let's see, we left there on New Year's Eve, 1942. 'Ihe reason I
remember that is because Illinois, in those days, in the highways, had
solid stripes and nr::7il they are all broken up ever so often. But
Florida had them all broken up down the way and on this real cold
night, I think we nust have taken off saneti.me arourx1 ten or eleven
o'clock for DUe Mabry in six-by trucks with the canvas over them ani
all that arxi I remember sitting in the back of that watching the
center line stripes go zip, zip, zip ani freezing to death. God, it
was cold, even in Florida.
We got to Dale Mabry early in the morning. Clyde Whi'bnire was one of
the guys that was with ne through that training there arrl I recall
that he was married. He had been in Aloe too, I guess, and -we'd
gotten fairly close and we split up at Dale Mabry because I was headed
for Erglani and he went south. You remember lhl.l Cochran, COlonel
Cochran, fran Bunna. worked with stilwell ani that bunch down there?
Well Cochran had a special P-51 outfit that he was using down there in
Bunna. and they had a training base in southern Florida arxi Clyde went
to that base fran Dale Mabry arxi then went over to fly with Cochran.
I think I got a letter or two frau him just after the war but I
haven't been in touch with him for a long time.
'!his Joe I<:noble was with ne at that time, I still didn't know him, I
hadn't reall¥ gotten to knew him and we were at Dale Mabry a very
short time, Just to process through am then we headed for Fort
Hamiltat. Another kid that had gone ~ with us down there, his
last name was Fish, I don't remember his fJISt name, but Fish, just
like the sliR;>BIY kin:1 ard he lived in upstate New York. When we got
to Fort Hamilton ani we were goilg to process, that was a port of
embarkation, one of the ports there at New York, and we were goi.rq to
be there an lll'lkr1cMn period time so Fish said, ''Why don't you go with
me up heine?" so we went CNer to the omerly room ani talked to the
guy and he said it was irregular, we weren't supposed to go off base
Horace Q. Waggoner 24
until we shipped out for wherever we ha~ to :be goirg, in our case
it was England. But sane way or other he gave, oh, in sane way he
checked the records and he said, "Well you guys aren 1t due to ship out
for about three days here and we have a little processirg for you to
do here J::ut we have the main part done J::ut you 1 re not authorized off
base." He said, "But I have nothirg for you until M:Jn:iay." 'Ihis I
guess was Friday eve.rri.rJ1. "If I don't see you between l'lOW' and M:n:lay
I won 1 t know' where you have been," and we said, "'lhank you, sir," and
walked out and walked out the gate and went down to the train station
and took off for Fish 1 s hane.
I remember we got up there it was the middle of the night, I guess
Friday IlDD'li.n;J early, two or three or four o 1 clock or so.met:hi.n] like
that and Fish lived in this old house but it was substantial. We
walked into the kitchen or into the house arryway and of course it was
dark and he said, ''Well let 1 s don 1 t bother anybody." SO we went up
this real. narrow stairwa¥. I remember the stail:way for same reason or
other, and we went upstaliB to his old roc:m and he checked arrl they
had two beds in there so we went in and hopped in. 'Ihe next nmning I
guess we slept until eight or nine o 1 clock or sanethirg like that and
I 1 d gotten up and gone to the bathroan and one of his sisters happened
to walk by the door and saw hiJn in the bed there ard she let out a
yell ard that was the first t:.hi.rg they knew we were even in the house.
He wanted to demonstrate his flyin;;r ability and the whole family got
into about two or three cars, the whole family you know', uncles and
aunts ani everybody, ard we drove up to this airfield north of there
and it was right near a bridge. You could see the bridge over there
fran the airfield. '!he family was talking with me and we were
watchirg. Fish went out, I think he took sanebody with hlln, ard
hc:g;led in a Taylorcraft or sanethirg and took off and went over and
started flyi.rq umer that bridge, all around ard back urx3er and flew
around for awhile and came back and nobody ever said anythirg about
that I guess or they never caught him arryway. we spent the weekend
there. I remember sunday they had a t.remen:1ous dinner for us and then
Sl.m:lay eve.rri.rJ1 we took off and went back and walked in the gate and
went back to our quarters and nothirg was ever said.
we did a couple or three t:.hi.rgs, I guess they probably checked our
shot records, and booster shots or so.met:hi.n]. We did go through the
gas chamber there and other than that, being gassed on the twenty mile
hike back in classification at San Antonio, well we hadn 1 t been issued
gas masks until that time, we were issued those at the port of
embarkation. so we were ~iven our gas masks and we went down to sane
old, old, they were all VJ.l'le covered amnrunition bunkers, had those big
iron doors on them and we were given all the talk about h.c7.tl these
thirgs worked and hOW" you put them on and how you took them off and
all that sort of t'h.irg. '!hen you had to go into this roan, and I
don 1t remember this, I remember being in the gas chamber and remember
takirg nrr mask off and get.tin;J a whiff of that stuff and st.artirq to
ary and all that and then they said, "Let 1 s get out of here," and the
sergeant said, "Clear out," and we cleared out. But Joe was telling
me that when he was in there he remembers the guy several times during
the instruction sayin;;J, "Okay you guys, don 1t ever take that :mask off
no matter who tells you to take it off without checking first." so
Joe says he went into the bunker an:l the EIE!J:988l1't said, "Okay you
guys, take your masks off." so eveeybody took their masks off except
Horace Q. Waggoner 25
Joe and. Joe was standing there and. the sergeant came over and. he said,
"I said take that mask off." Joe said, "Yes, sir. I heal::d you, 11 and.
he leaned over an:i opened the side of it and took a whiff of that and
then stood up and the sergeant looked at him and he said, "Now that's
think:inq, boy, 11 and he reached over and. grabbed the mask ani yanked it
off. He said, "But you •ve got to leam what it is without it." BUt
that didn't haJ;Pm to me, that happened to Joe and I didn't see it
haJ;Pm like he was telling me about that.
Q: Did they use tear gas?
A: Yes. It would burn the hell out of your eyes and make you cough
like mad ard those dumb kids taking their masks off, but you had to
take it off because they wanted you knc7.rl what the affect was. 'Ihose
gas masks, we ccu:ried those fran that point through the rest of the
war. I don •t think we ever took them out of the thing unless you used
them for sanething. A lot of guys took them out ard threw them away
ani used the bag for a bani bag to carry booze and. camy an:i stuff in.
I carried mine tmtil the eni of the war and. I don't think I eNer
opened it again, thank Gcd, I didn't have to open it again. My
stepfather, he died in 1938 as a result of bein:J gassed m world War I
in the 13th Field Artillery.
Q: so harl long did the overseas Training unit last?
A: I.st's see, I graduated with the class of 1943 I fran Aviation
cadets and was camnissioned in late September or early october, right
aroun:i that time an:i then I had thirty days at bane so I 1'lllSt have
reported in there about early in November sanetime. Specifically, we
did leave there New Year's Eve, I remember that very distinctly. so
it was about a month an:i a half I guess of flying down there. I don't
know harl many hours we got, probably put in a h\ll'Jired hours or
sanething like that.
Q: How old were you at the time?
A: well let's see, 1942 I was eighteen years old. I.st's see Fort
Hamil tal, well that Is about all I recall about that other than the
departure fran there. I remember that because it was cold. we were
there maybe at the outside a week and. we were goin;J to go across on
the Ile de • France. It was a French ship that had been taken over by
the British, it was marmed by the British an:i they rolled us out in
the middle of the evenirg ard all in full gear an:i everytb.i.rg packe:i
with the barracks bags, well we had oor B-4 bag at that tilne, you
know, the one that folds open and. you oould carry a mess of stuff in
that thing. But we fell out and formed up on, I think it was a
canpany street, it was a kini of wharf-like affair down near the river
and. we stood there, and. we stocxi there, ani we stocxi there. It must
have been two or three o'clock in the nmning before they got aroun:i
to moving us and finally we filed on down off that wharf into the
lighters. D:m't ask me to describe the lighter other than it was made
of metal ani it would hold a bunch of people. We climbed in there an:i
then we went out and sat in the midtle of the river for a while. Well
there were ice chunks floatin;J down this river and they'd barg against
the side of that~ and go scraping along and. we were in a hold.
It was just, you got m and. well, it had a deck an::l then a hold an1 we
Horace Q. Waggoner 26
all climbed in and got down in that hold and it was just a hold, no
chairs, no benches, no nothing, you just sat on the floor ani we sat
there for about two or three hours I guess. Finally we moved on down
the river ani got down to 'Mlere they pulled us alorqside the ship and
we climbed aboard.
As I urderstand there were sametJ:rl.n:J like twe1 ve or fourteen thousand.
troops aboard the Ile de France for that crossi.rq. She went by
herself ani not in corwoy, she was a fast ship. I don't knc:M how many
knots she made but it was fast enough she didn't have to have any. At
that time of year, this was in Januaey, the North Atlantic is really
ferocious ani I '11 never fcm;Je't that trip. As big as that ship was,
she was on her side, Wi.ch is maybe as much as a thirty degree an:Jle,
or whatever you call it, roll, ani we were in a stateroan, I think it
was nine. As I recall there were three sets of bunks, triple bunks,
aram:i the wall in a U-shape ani we did have our CMn latrine. It was
stuffy. '!here was no air circulation in there at all and as a
consequence I don't think I was in that room over a few hours a day or
When I would sleep because I just couldn't stan:l the air and I spent
nart of the trip on deck, oh it was beautiful I tell you. 'Ihat thing
-would lay aver or roll to the side ani a wave would be goin;J up in
front of you so you are lex>ki.rg dCMn through the water and it was all
green ani phosplorescence and especially at night it was really
beautiful.
'Ihe food was horrible. we ate twice a day and at both feedi.tgs it was
the same th:i.rq, it was porridge ani fried tomatoes, that was it. An
oatmeal sort of th:i.rq you 1alow and God, I don't know, I ate it a few
times I guess, but with the ship rollin; and with everybody gettin:]
sick anyway, it wasn't very appetizi.rg. I remember the dishes would
slide, you'd sit down and the ship wculd roll and the dishes would go
aver here ani then it would go back and forth. It really happens, it
had this little rim aroun:i the side you l<now ani occasionally one
would hit the rim and go right on over.
What I learned from that was not to rely on the mess on the ship but
to lay in a good supply of can:iy bars and stuff yo.t :know ani just eat
it in your quarters and don't even bother about the mess except for
coffee ani that sort of thing. Which was kin:l of like the experience
with 11lltton back in advance you lalow, ea.~ ice cream all the time.
Not:.hirq particularly excitirq about that, it took three or four days
for us to go across ani zig-zagged a lot ani all that sort thing and
no alerts on sul:lnarines, we always figured they were goin;J to attack
us but no problem on it.
We got woke up one m:>min;J ani evecything was just sxoooth ani nice and
went out on deck ani we were in the Irish sea between Wales ard
Irelarrl headed north. We could see Irelam, Wales was off a little
further, we were closer to Irelan:l and it looked like a doll outfit
you kr'lcM, green like it was supposed to be an:i all these little hruses
and these little cars an:i everything would look like models going over
there.
'Ihe main thing I remember about arrivin; in the Irish sea was that
there was a baby aircraft carrier, one of those escort jabs carried
Horace Q. Waggoner 27
maybe four to six airplanes or so, a British outfit. we were goirq by
it arr:l had a Spitfire that was sh.oot.i:rq touch-ani-goes on it and. he,
we watched him CXIJ.1e down ard he wt'W.d touch ard go ani go ara.md
circuits ani b.lnp ani came in this time ani he hit ard bounced, so he
hit the wheels first arxl J:x:unoecl arr:l 'Went up in the air and. cat1e down
ani he was over controllinq, he was tryinq to push it forwazd so he
would touch again and. he t:cuched. all right. He touched en his nose
ard the two main gears am he sat right there, just sk.idded up am
s1:cJR:ad. As we 'Went off they were out pulling' him back down, t.a:Jd.rq
him off the deck I guess. I'll never forget that Spitfire thclt:lgh,
t:h:rae point on its nose. (laughter)
we went on up to Gourich, Scotland. and we docked ani we then
off-loaded and we ma:rdled as a qroup to a brewery, it wasn't used as a
brewery, just an old buildin:I. It looked like one of these castle
t:hinqs like you'd expect to see in Scotland.. But it was black, it was
in the middle of the night and eve:ryt:.hi.rg was blacked out, of course,
and. it was black. Any lights there were, were just lights with little
glimmers. I remember we went into this cavemous place, a huge roan,
am sat on the floor ard waited. I don •t knc.w how lotTJ we were there
but it was well into the I'lli!Xt mmilq they finally came in ani f0ll1.1ed
us all up arrl we mar:ch.ed down the train station and headed south.
Er:d of side one, Tape '1\«.)
NO:r.E: 'lhe first five minutes of Side '1\«.)1 Tape Two have been lost.
'lbis side beqins with Mr. Waggoner in Replacement Tra:i.nirg unit in
Erg land.
A: So I had that • • • that was the first e:rgine that popped on me.
I had two others that pc:!ppEd on me in "tt..Y career. But, no ~lems,
good pract:..ice. It was a real serious fOI'Oed. land.in.:;J. I f1gured that
was pxetty good, I could do it.
Q: What caused the engine to go out?
A: I blew a stack ••• when I pusheC1 it forward like that I jallll1ed
all the power to it, it just blew the cylinier head off. Well, it
blew a cylirxier off, the entire cylinder was qone. one cylinier was
gone, and. I don't knc.w What other dal.'lltge, l::ut it was ••• it really
blew the erqine.
Oh, I guess the ot.be:r major thinq that h2q:pened as far as the flyin;J
was ooncemed at 11tf goirg t.h.rough. the Replacemetit Tra:i.nirg Unit was
that they evaluated that I wasn •t hitt.i.n;J ~ fran this
evaluation of the amara. I l«:llldn't have hit a.nyt:hirrJ. So, they
decided that they wculd seni na aver to a British gunnezy school. I
have no idea where that school was, I have a feelin;J it was in
InU..arxt, but I dal't knale1 where it was. But I went over there am
spent two days. I was auy there, you knc.w a day over, spent two days
there, am a day oominq back. '!bey were t.awirq, with IqsarJ3.ers
(Westla:rd), they t.c7t.led ~out over the water there, ard you'd go
out am make passes on them. Again, it was non-firinq, you were doirg
it with just your gun ca.tl¥!ra film.